A few days ago I posted a blog: What’s OK in the Bedroom? A woman left an anonymous comment on this blog asking what I thought about acting out fantasies/taking nude pics/being like a porn star so that her husband doesn’t have to look at other women. In the post you can see my response.
My dear friend, Donny Pauling, and I have been emailing back and forth in disagreement on this subject. You can see his initial comment in the comment section of the original post, but I didn’t post his subsequent comment due to words I thought may not settle well with some women who read this blog.
However, I wanted to share our conversation, which I have edited to keep safe for this blog. I’m posting it here because I want you to see two different opinions on this subject.
So, here goes:
Donny
I’d disagree with the part about fantasies. I think fantasies are very much created by God. Our Opponent has bastardized that term, but it’s not a bad thing to fantasize if it is kept appropriate, meaning “longing for one’s spouse.” For example: if I’m out on the road speaking, and my wife is at home away from me, why would it be wrong to let my mind wander about her? There is a lot of freedom for such a couple. IF, however, fantasies or activities are drawing them away from each other, that’s obviously wrong. Other than that, I think God’s blessing is on whatever sexual activity two people do that doesn’t involve others or affect each other in a negative way. Sex is meant to be enjoyed by two people. It’s special, sacred, and has no bounds other than that it be only amongst two who God has joined together.
If God restores my marriage to Wendy, I am confident nude photography will NOT be part of our relationship again. I took something beautiful and broke it. I doubt she would ever be comfortable in front of my camera that way, and since both parties must be comfortable, it would be wrong for me to even ask.
But I certainly can’t speak for any other couple, and a camera in NO WAY automatically equates to impurity. Not in the least.
Ashley
In my post I’m specifically talking about women posing in nude pics for her husband so that he’d have no desire for porn. That is completely unhealthy. A lot of women come to me asking if they should imitate porn/fantasies/etc. so that he no longer needs that, but can just “use” them as the object instead. I don’t agree with this.
Of course, having thoughts about your wife (without masturbation) is not what I’d call “fantasy.” It’s called thinking about reality. Fantasy isn’t reality. Imagining doing something with my husband is a lot different than imagining doing something with my husband as someone else (i.e. dressed up like a teacher or pizza guy or something).
Donny
I’d like to pass along a bit of wisdom handed to me by my pastor… he cautioned me never to make absolute statements that don’t apply absolutely.
Ashley
Could you re-phrase your last comment? I am VERY cautious about the stuff I post on this blog, as I want it to be refreshing and healing for women.
As for making absolute statements … I stated in my blog post that this is my heart and cautioned people not to follow my heart, but to search this out on their own. So I don’t believe I’m posting anything absolute.
Donny
Okie dokie. Guess that comment wasn’t meant to be posted.
Ashley
You can post. I just need it to be sensitive to the hearts of women, since that’s what this blog is about.
I think your comment has good thoughts, just need to edit that part out. This blog isn’t a normal blog (like my personal one) where we can be open about anything. It’s very restrictive. It’s meant to offer hope to women, not make them feel worse. I know you probably think it’s crazy that the little paragraph you wrote would make them feel worse, but trust me, it would. I’m one of them. I know.
Nothing against you … Just protecting their hearts.
Donny
I’m of the opinion that pacifying people leads to them becoming bigger whiners. I’ve been very gentle in the past, which is what makes me believe this. The more a person is protected, the more they need protecting. So I’ve moved toward less PC and more reality. That’s why I can’t re-write to remove that part.
Ashley
I’m not a fan of “pacifying” either. And I don’t do that. I simply offer hope for women who are VERY sensitive. There will come a point in their healing process where they are able to deal with the harsher realities of all of this. But right now most of them are, as I’ve been in my past, ultra-sensitive. I don’t want to offend others.
I think it’s possible to show them reality and not overwhelm them with statements that will make them feel worse. And because I talk to them every day … I can tell you that your paragraph would have done way more harm than good. It’s not really about pacifying, it’s about speaking the truth with gentleness… ULTRA gentleness.
PS — You and I are very different. We’re not gonna agree on quite a lot. But guess what? That’s okay. Love doesn’t mean you have to agree on everything.
Donny
We definitely don’t have to agree on everything. But I do want you to consider something: if the women are as fragile as you’re saying, what do you think it will do to some of them who may actually love using a camera in their “play” with their husbands? I realize you wrote that disclaimer about this being your heart, etc. But I don’t think that’s going to be enough to overcome the overall tone of the article. It really comes across as if you’re saying such things are sinful, and the hard truth of that matter is that they are not, and those who partake in such activities should not feel guilty about them in the least. Know what I mean?
Anyway… I suppose neither of us are going to convince the other to change their opinion, so we’re probably just spinning our wheels, no?
Ashley
This post isn’t about using cameras or not using cameras, it’s about posing in such a way as to make your husband’s desire for porn decrease. Two different things, ya know?
Donny
That’s just not how it comes across.
Also… you and I may have our opinions on what is appropriate in regards to posing, but I don’t think our opinions should be the standard for others. Even if a woman wants to pose Hustler style for her husband, that should be their choice. I don’t see anything wrong with that, either. When did we start becoming Catholic, making everything a sin that we don’t personally agree with? I think the argument that it will make a husband’s desire for porn increase is flawed… ’cause I could say that having sex with his wife could make a man’s desire for sex with other women increase… how would that be different? It’s not. Not in the least.
Ashley
I agree that my standards should not apply to everynoe, which is why I prefaced my response with “search this out on your own, this is just MY heart.” However, posing Hustler style … their choice or not … can’t convince me that it’s “right.” Sorry. I’m a black and white person (in my own life) and don’t see things like that. But I’m not out to convince the world to think like me. Ya know?
As for having sex with his wife making his desire for other women decrease … sure, that might work for a little while, but without a heart change that’s not going to last. (And I don’t think that’s a healthy reason to be having sex in the first place.)
Also, in the post, can you help me see where exactly I stated “cameras are wrong!”
Donny
To me, that says “posing nude is acting like a porn star”. Just telling you how it comes across to me.
Ashley, porn imitates. It doesn’t set a standard. Certain poses remind YOU of porn, but the truth is this: men are visual and women like to be desired, even visually. That’s beautiful – and even encouraged in Song of Songs where he describes every part of her body. He couldn’t have done so if she hadn’t “posed” in a way to display it.
Long before porn existed, women posed explicitly for their husbands…and it was good. Porn imitates that and takes it outside the bonds of marriage. Then, because porn is allowed to rob some of us, certain things begin being labeled impure that are NOT impure. YOU might have a picture in mind of what purity is, but it just might be possible that you’re reacting to the former porn struggles you’ve mentioned and want exactly opposite of everything you saw there. If so, porn has robbed you. It impurely imitated something that IS pure if kept between you and George, and now what was pure before has become impure to you. Believe me, I know this from experience. There are so many things I’ll never do again cause they’d remind me of my porn past. I, too, have been robbed.
But what I will not do is write my thoughts in a way that makes others feel wrong for acting that way for a spouse. I don’t want to rob them as I’ve been robbed.
Ashley
Well, I haven’t made anyone feel like anything is wrong. I have simply stated my heart and I hope I’ve made that clear. As for the rest of what you just said … don’t agree with you in the slightest and definitely don’t think I’ve been robbed AT ALL … but that’s okay.
People disagree with me a lot. I’m not out to agree with the world or make the world agree with me. So … I get your side, see your point, don’t agree with ya.
My Final Thoughts
I haven’t heard back from Donny yet, but wanted to add my final thoughts for those of you reading this. Being beautiful, desired, and feeling sexy around your husband is never something I would consider wrong. Sensuality within the marriage bed is beautiful. It is so beautiful. And sadly, porn has robbed many of us of this, because it has made us women feel like we aren’t beautiful.
I spent many nights of my marriage making love to my husband and imagining other women, wondering if he was imagining them in order to be turned on by me. I often believed I needed to be sexy in the way porn stars are sexy in order to keep him from thinking of those women and keep his thoughts on me.
And in my opinion, that robbed our marriage of pure, beautiful, real sex. It kept us focused on outward things, instead of inner. It kept us focused on the perversions that this world has created, instead of the beauty of natural, fun sex. It kept us focused on ourselves and our own needs, instead of the pure enjoyment of each other.
Now, I would never say that our marriage bed has been robbed because of porn. We have no desire to act out fantasies or pose like Hustler magazine. We don’t need that to have fun in our intimate life. And because of the freedom we now have to enjoy each other without masks, fantasies, and perversions … we have been blessed, not robbed. We are blessed because our marriage bed has been so pure and beautiful — something I would have never imagined with the stuff we have both seen and went through.
I love where we are now and wouldn’t trade it for the most “fun” of all the world’s sexual games. My favorite thing about sex is that I am one with my husband. I am one. We are together. We got through this mess of porn and perversion and our marriage bed is no longer tainted with thoughts of other people or fantasies.
I love that. And I love sex. Not because of orgasms or fun, but because it’s one of the most beautiful things a married couple can ever experience together. An act of worship. An act of beauty and pure sensuality that is so, so honoring to God.
I pray that your marriage bed is blessed. That throughout your healing process it becomes less and less tainted. And that one day … your marriage will be completely free of porn.